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MINUTES OF THE CITY COUNCIL
October 8, 2002
An Adjourned Meeting of the City Council of the City of Moorpark was
held on October 8, 2002, in the Council Chambers of said City located
at 799 Moorpark Avenue, Moorpark, California.
1. CALL TO ORDER:
Mayor Hunter called the meeting to order at 6:40 p.m.
Mayor Hunter announced that the adjourned meeting was called
to discuss Item 10.A., which was continued from the October 2,
2002, regular meeting.
2. INVOCATION:
None.
3. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE:
Councilmember Harper led the Pledge of Allegiance.
4. ROLL CALL:
Present: Councilmembers Mikos, Millhouse, Harper,
Wozniak and Mayor Hunter.
Staff Present: Steven Kueny, City Manager; Hugh Riley,
Assistant City Manager; Mary Lindley, Director
of Community Services; Paul Porter, Principal
Planner; and Deborah Traffenstedt, Assistant
to City Manager /City Clerk.
5. PROCLAMATIONS AND COMMENDATIONS:
None.
6. PUBLIC COMMENT:
None.
7. REORDERING OF, AND ADDITIONS TO, THE AGENDA:
None.
8. ANNOUNCEMENTS AND FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS:
None.
Minutes of the City Council
Moorpark, California Page 2 October 8, 2002
9. PUBLIC HEARINGS:
None.
10. PRESENTATION /ACTION /DISCUSSION:
A. Consider Proposed Sign Program for Commercial Planned
Development Permit No. 2001 -01 (Moorpark Marketplace -
357,621 Square Foot Commercial Center) Located South of
New Los Angeles Avenue, East of Miller Parkway and West
of the SR -23 Freeway on the Application of Zelman Retail
Partners, Inc. (Continued from September 18, 2002 meeting
and October 2, 2002 meeting.) Staff Recommendation:
Approve the Master Sign Program subject to the staff
recommended modifications.
Mr. Porter gave the staff report.
Brian Wolfe, P & R Architects, 111 W. Ocean Boulevard,
Suite 2100, Long Beach, California, representing the
applicant, discussed revisions to the sign elevations and
presented four alternatives, which due to limited time
did not include the final architectural details. He
stated that changes in the alternatives included: the
division of panels to a side by side configuration; the
reduction in letter height from 36- inches to 30- inches;
and a reduction in the total height of the sign from 78-
feet to 52 -feet. Mr. Wolfe presented renderings of four
options, including line of sight versions as seen from
Los Angeles Avenue, along with aerial simulations of the
entire center. He went on to state that all the options
are of similar height with Option D having the least
mass.
Veronica Fischer, a Moorpark resident, stated her support
for the project. Ms. Fischer described the difficulty in
getting companies such as Target to locate to a City with
a population such as Moorpark's; the benefit of Target
coming to Moorpark will be the attraction of other
desirable retail tenants; the increased sales tax revenue
for the City; and the eagerness with which residents are
awaiting this project.
Kevin Mauch, a Moorpark resident, stated that he did not
support the billboard type signage; the Council should
not give in to the developer's claims that they cannot
make a go of it without the sign; and residents would not
be in favor of this pole sign.
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Moorpark, California Page 3
October 8, 2002
Pierce Verleur, a Moorpark resident, questioned the need
for the sign to attract customers from the freeway since
the customer -base for the center will be predominately
from within the City of Moorpark not from residents of
Simi Valley or from the 101 freeway corridor.
Lise Houston, a Moorpark resident, stated her support for
the retail development and the proposed stores; that the
freeway sign is unnecessary for generating business; and
that if there must be sign, a shorter version would be an
improvement.
Mark Armbruster, representing Cypress Land Company, 2121
Avenue of The Stars, Los Angeles, California, stated that
he looks forward to the synergy between the commercial
and industrial projects; he cares about the success of
the shopping center; and from his company's viewpoint,
freeway signage is needed to ensure that the center is
successful.
Councilmember Harper asked if any Councilmembers liked
any of the four options.
Councilmember Mikos discussed the need for a compromise
between the Council's objections to the signage and the
applicant's need to have the signs. She went on to state
that she supports the center, which has already been
approved; a decision still needs to be made about how the
sign will look; there is no guarantee which tenants will
occupy the center; she is pleased with the overall design
of the center; the sign options presented are not that
desirable; the whiteness of the panels makes it difficult
to visualize the signs with more detail; and she would
like to hear from the rest of the Council before making a
decision.
Councilmember Wozniak stated that Option D resembles a
power pole; he is not favorably impressed with the white
area on the signs; the reduction in height is an
improvement; and a pitched roof could improve the
appearance of the top. He stated that the height of the
sign should be determined by the Council at this meeting
and the design should come back for approval, allowing
time for the applicant to work with Target to illustrate
the embellishments.
Councilmember Harper stated that the proposal looks like
a billboard; he concurs with Councilmember Wozniak that
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Moorpark, California Page 4
October 8, 2002
more design work is needed to add character to the sign;
retailers look at the City of Moorpark as a marginal
market area and feel it is necessary to have adequate
signage if they are to locate here; and with
modifications, Option C or D have potential.
Councilmember Millhouse stated that he did not vote in
support of the project; he does not like the tenant mix;
this is a lower -end shopping center and the City of
Moorpark deserves better; the freeway signage is not
needed; the decision to have a sign has already been
approved by the Council; he is willing to take the chance
that Target will not leave if the Council takes back
their decision for the sign; the design of the sign needs
to be determined; he does not like the new options, which
look like a billboard; and he might be able to support
the original pylon -type design with a reduction in
height.
In response to Mayor Hunter, Mr. Kueny confirmed that the
location and height of the signage have previously been
determined by the Council.
Mayor Hunter stated that what is left to be determined is
the architecture; the applicant indicates the
architectural details are missing due to time
constraints, so there is nothing to decide; and there is
a 24 -foot sign to be located on Los Angeles Avenue, east
of Miller Parkway, which also needs to be considered as
part of this sign program.
Councilmember Mikos stated that the advantage of the
lower signage is view preservation; she is concerned
about Councilmember Harper's suggestions for archways,
which will create greater mass for the lower signs; there
are no renderings depicting what larger, low signs will
look like; it is difficult to make a decision without
seeing that design; the columns depicted in the new
design do not blend with rest of the architecture in the
center; renderings are needed showing embellished
versions of the signs; she can go either way on the 24-
foot pylon sign, which does blend with the architectural
style of the center and is the same height as the signs
at Ralphs Center and Mission Bell Plaza; she is concerned
about the plain and ordinary appearance of the 12 -foot
high monument sign near the corner of Miller Parkway and
New Los Angeles Avenue, which depicts the minor tenants'
names; and that the same font for the lettering "Moorpark
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Moorpark, California Page 5
October 8, 2002
Marketplace" should be used on the big tower as is
depicted on the three entry monument signs.
In response to Mayor Hunter, Mr. Wolfe stated that the
12 -foot high monument sign is the only identification for
the twelve or more, smaller tenants tucked back in the
center. He deferred to Mr. Exel to elaborate.
Robert Exel, representing Zelman Retail Partners, Inc.,
515 South Figueroa, Suite 515, Los Angeles, California,
stated that all of the tenants do not need to be on the
12 -foot monument sign; two restaurant pads, which are
below grade, would need to be named on the sign; and the
seven panels on the freeway sign are reserved for the
five major tenants along with two restaurants.
In response to Councilmember Mikos, Mr. Exel demonstrated
on the site plan where the tenants for the below grade
pads are to be located.
Councilmember Millhouse stated that there is too much
signage on the project; he agrees with Mayor Hunter that
excess signage located in public locations must be
removed; and until an acceptable design for the large
sign comes back to the Council and /or additional signage
is removed, he cannot support this sign program.
In response to Councilmember Mikos, Councilmember
Millhouse stated that all the signage along the food
court area needs to be an art piece not an advertisement;
the 12 -foot high sign along Los Angeles Avenue is
unnecessary if the 78 -foot sign is approved; and that the
entryway signs should be better designed to resemble
entryway features such as those at the Promenade.
In response to Mayor Hunter, Mr. Kueny confirmed that as
part of the amendment to the Settlement Agreement, the
Air Quality fee was reduced for this project by about one
million dollars.
Councilmember Harper stated that this center is a great
addition to the community; other communities have
developed these smaller centers prior to acquiring the
major retailers like the ones at the Promenade; and that
this center would allow local residents to do the
majority of their shopping in Moorpark. He asked the
Council to concentrate on one element of the sign program
at a time, in order to give the applicant more focused
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Moorpark, California Page 6
direction.
October 8, 2002
Mayor Hunter concurred and stated that it would better
serve the public and the applicant if there was closure
on the project rather than returning to another meeting.
He asked the Council what direction they would like to
focus on the major sign at the corner.
Councilmember Wozniak stated that the taller pylon sign
is not necessary; the 24 -foot sign should be reduced in
size; and the panels of advertising can be split between
it and the 12 -foot sign. He went on to state that
without renderings it is difficult to decide what the
signs are going to look like.
Mr. Kueny suggested reaching a consensus on the tall
pylon sign and summarized: Option 1) the 78 -foot sign as
originally proposed; Option 2) reduce the panel size on
the original proposal and decrease the height to 72 -feet;
Option 3) a 52 -foot sign with the addition of
approximately 4 feet for adding a roof element; and
Option 4) eliminate a panel and create an approximate 68-
foot high sign.
In response to Mayor Hunter, Mr. Wolfe stated that the
roof design could be revised; one sign panel could be
split into two panels; and one panel could be eliminated
with a reduction in the height of the signage to
approximately 66 -feet or less.
In response to Councilmember Mikos, Mr. Wolfe stated that
the fundamental design would remain that of the 78 -foot
tower.
Councilmember Mikos asked if Planning Commissioner, Mark
DiCecco, would comment on the design.
Commissioner DiCecco, based his comments on the pylon
sign and stated that the applicant's suggestion that the
sign could be 21 -feet wide rather than 42 -feet wide would
make it more proportional to a bell tower; signage on
only two sides would leave an opportunity for a clock
face on the other two sides; and that his preference
would be for a taller, narrower sign, as opposed to a
wider more massive sign.
Councilmember Harper stated that a taller bell tower
would be the highest element in the City and would become
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Moorpark, California Page 7 October 8, 2002
more of a landmark; he could support the taller version
with modifications, if that is the Council's desire,
however his preference is for a lower, wider, more
conventional sign for a shopping center along with better
detail.
Councilmember Mikos stated that the only way to reach a
decision is to see what the different renderings would
look like. She concurred with Councilmember Wozniak that
the 24 -foot corner sign is not necessary with the tall
pylon sign.
Mayor Hunter stated that the applicant is directed to
return with renderings showing a variation of the 78 -foot
high sign and a variation of the three options, presented
at this meeting, excluding Option D, all of which will
include sufficient embellishment to show architectural
detail.
Councilmember Millhouse stated that direction should be
given regarding the three options.
In response to Mayor Hunter, Mr. Wolfe stated that they
would try to provide renderings of a 66 -foot high
variation of the 78 -foot high sign and a rendering of the
version of the lower, wider sign by Tuesday preceding the
next meeting.
Mr. Kueny stated that if it is the consensus of the
Council that the 66 -foot variation with details from the
original 78 -foot sign is preferable to the more massive
shorter sign, he would like to avoid the difficulty of
coordinating the distribution of renderings by deferring
to Mr. Hogan to bring the sign into conformance.
Councilmember Wozniak concurred and requested that Mr.
Hogan approve the sign at 66 -feet or less in height.
There was no Council consensus on deferral of approval to
Mr. Hogan.
In response to Councilmember Harper, Mayor Hunter stated
that clock elements should be included in the renderings
and if the Council determines they are not attractive
they can be eliminated.
In response to Councilmember Mikos, Mr. Wolfe stated that
it would be better to focus on one design rather than
A
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Moorpark, California Page 8
October 8, 2002
prepare renderings of each of the lower signs and
requested that the Council direct which one they would
like to emphasize.
In response to Councilmember Mikos, Mr. Wolfe stated he
was not sure that freeway views of the sign could be
completed by the following week.
Mayor Hunter stated that by a straw poll it can be
concluded that there is not support for a 52 -foot by 42-
foot sign and that the architect should focus on a 66-
foot or less by 21 -foot sign with sufficient detail for
the Council to render a decision.
Mr. Kueny read the Settlement Agreement language
regarding the 24 -foot and 12 -foot signs.
In response to Councilmember Millhouse, Mr. Kueny stated
that that the Council has discretion over the location
and design of the signage.
Mr. Wolfe stated that they
height of the 24 -foot sign
panels on the other sign.
will attempt to reduce the
and reduce the number of
In response to Mr. Mikos, Mayor Hunter stated that the
Master Sign Program has to be adopted as a program.
Councilmember Harper stated that he would like to see the
24 -foot sign reduced in height; the number of panels
reduced; and that if the direction of the Council is to
make the tower on the corner the most prominent feature
of the center, he will reluctantly agree.
Mayor Hunter stated that the 24 -foot and 12 -foot high
monument signs target the same audience along New Los
Angeles Avenue.
In response to Mayor Hunter, Mr. Wolfe stated that the
two signs are approximately 300 -feet apart; the signs are
located west of the driveway; different tenants are
identified on the two signs; street identification is
needed for the tenants; and that street signage will be
necessary as the landscaping matures and screens the
building signs.
In response to Mayor Hunter and Councilmember Millhouse's
concern regarding the advertising placed on the `Arts in
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Moorpark, California Page 9
October 8, 2002
Public Places" portion of the center, Mr. Wolfe stated
that the signage near the fountain can be reduced, but
the side panels will need to remain.
Councilmember Harper stated that he did not object to
signage on the colonnade, which is adjacent to the water
feature, not directly on the fountain; the center needs a
reasonable amount of signage to be successful; and the
Council needs to achieve closure on the sign issue in
order for the center to move forward.
Councilmember Millhouse stated that the fountain element
was an attempt at "Art in Public Places "; the colonnade
is critical to the water fountain element, because it
helps shield the diners from the parking lot; and he is
concerned that waiving the Arts in Public Places fees,
which could have been used for actual art in the
community, is not the correct thing to do.
Councilmember Harper stated that the signage on the
colonnade will not be visible from the food court; the
signage will not detract from the outside dining
experience; the fee is not being waived, rather the
developer is allowed to produce some art object for the
project or pay "in lieu" fees.
Mayor Hunter stated that other fees are being waived on
this project as part of the project approval.
In response to Mayor Hunter, Mr. Wolfe stated that he has
sufficient direction on the freeway oriented sign, but he
is unclear on the other signs and the colonnade.
Mr. Kueny summarized that on the colonnade the signs
should be moved away from the fountain; the 24 -foot sign
should be reduced in height to approximately 20 feet with
no specific direction as to how to accomplish that; and a
the 12 -foot high monument sign should be reduced in
height along with a reduction in the number of panels
from twelve to eight.
A discussion followed among the Councilmembers regarding
a date for continuance.
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Moorpark, California Page 10
October 8, 2002
CONSENSUS: By consensus, the Council determined to: 1)
direct the applicant to return with a variation of the freeway
oriented pylon sign not to exceed 66 -feet in height by
approximately 21 -feet in width with a clock face on two sides;
2) move the colonnade signs away from the fountain; 3) reduce
the height of the 24 -foot sign to approximately 20 feet; 4)
reduce the height of the 12 -foot high monument sign and the
number of panels from twelve to eight; and 5) continue the
meeting to the October 16, 2002, regular meeting which would
be adjourned to Thursday, October 17, 2002.
In response to Councilmember Mikos, Mr. Wolfe stated he
would try to have the rendering of the freeway sign
available for the Council to review on the Tuesday prior
to the meeting date.
14. ADJOURNMENT:
MOTION: Councilmember Harper moved and Councilmember Wosniak
seconded a motion to adjourn the meeting. The motion carried
by unanimous voice vote. The time was 8:21 p.m.
Patrick Hunter, Mayor
ATTEST:
Deborah S. Traffenstedt
City Clerk